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       ICQ Chat Save file     
 Started on Thu Jul 16 20:48:39 1998

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<SimbaW> Sorry Chak, :/
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> I was drastically worried about you.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> Oh!
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> <laughing> I asked to talk to you for a different reason ;) There's nothing to be worried about. Just a new opportunity that I think that you might be a good person to help me with...in more ways than one :)
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> BTW, did I send you the Aiheu.htm file this evening?
<SimbaW> Umm, no :/
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> This is DRASTICALLY improved.  Please read this thingy.  
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> That would be good :)
<SimbaW> 
<SimbaW> I will read your thingy ;)
<SimbaW> 
<SimbaW> This is the doc file you sent isn't it?
<Chakal> Far improved, but yes.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> This is indeed interesting..
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> This is a better representation of how I feel inside.  A little more accurate.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> It is a very good philosphy...
<SimbaW> something to believe in I suppose..
<SimbaW> 
<SimbaW> I noticed that...
<SimbaW> There is only master and us is what I seem to get...
<Chakal> It is more than a philosophy.  There is a cosmology of Aiheuism that goes beyond the issues.  I am not a traditionalist in religion.  Not by a long shot.  My whole interpretation of the relationship of God to his creation is very different.  That's what the "master race" title hinted at.  There is no master race.  Either alive by the will of God or not alive.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> Does that make him the master though?
<Chakal> That which lives lives because God has established importance.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> I mean race in the sense of one species being "given" or 'put in charge' of others.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> I know.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> I'm just asking these questions because I'm being evil...devil's advocate, but I mean it's a natural question.
<SimbaW> 
<SimbaW> Alright, we're either important enough to live, or we're not. But does that make us his pawns or
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> Nevermind, answered elsewhere....
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> That makes him the parent and us the children.  
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> But does that make him the 'master' and us the 'minors'?
<Chakal> Because that perfect unity is a one-ness, it is unlikely that he has reproduced to start other gods in other galaxies.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> What does that unity mean? That we understand his power or that we just are? What does it mean to be one?
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> To be one is to be part of one living system.  Think of "being one" as what a lion and lioness do when they mate.  They come together and accomplish an act which brings life into the world.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> <smirks> That'll never fly when trying to explain it to someone ;)
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> I did not say it was sexual in nature.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> You have taken a quickly stated metaphor and beaten it to death.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> So being one with god is like mating?? You don't have to :p the word implies it and when trying to explain it to people its safer to be more careful..
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> I never used it in my manifesto.  I used it with you because you understood.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> Oh...well then, forget it.
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> Let me put it this way.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> But that brings up the question, if we do make this oneness, are we like him? or do we sill retain our same roles?
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> This oneness is like.....Bruckner's 7th symphony.  God is the conductor.  We engage in a oneness to which the absencce of an instrument doing its part leaves a harmful gap.  The word "harmony" is the key here.  God alone is like a flute, playing one note at a time in a fine but sparce melody.  God as creator is like a symphony with harmonies and basso ostenato....
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> But the question is, does finding this oneness make us first chair in the orchestra or leave us in the audience observing.
<SimbaW> ?
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> That oneness makes us very MUCH so in the orchestra.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> So we are in essence 'better' because we are actually playing for god instead of listening to god conduct others? (following the metaphor)
<SimbaW> 
<SimbaW> Part of the show instead of observing?
<Chakal> OK, would you like ot be part of the show or observing if the ice cream man drove by and you were an 8 year old boy playhing baseball with your friends?
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> Would you rather be part of the show or observing if your mother hugged five different people, but did not even look at you?
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> It is LIVING.  Participating is LIVING.  
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> Everything we do is part of the instrumental part we play.  That's why we eat, sleep, mate, die, work, learn, teach, grow, and grow old.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> Wait wait wait...so does that mean that in observing we are less than those that are in the show, or are we just waiting our turn
<Chakal> No one exists that merely observes.  Even the act of observing is an "act."
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> 
<SimbaW> No no, I mean the oneness thing...
<Chakal> The oneness thing is LIKE a symphony, but it is NOT a symphony. 
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> If we achieve oneness, then we are part of the symphony of life with god, right?
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> Sure we are.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> And if we have not made that oneness yet, where does that leave us?
<Chakal> Not a pregnant pause--I had to turn mother's light out because she was comfy....
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> Well....
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> You claim that you have not made that oneness.  We're neither talking about Buddah achieving nirvana nor are we discussing Billy Graham being born again.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> No, wait. I didn't say I haven't maide that oneness, I am just asking where it leaves those who have not achieved it. Are they to be striving for it or live and let it happen?
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> That oneness is something you have achieved at any given moment to a certain degree.  It is like people sitting at different distances from a campfire at night.  Those very far away are dimly lit and cold.  Those closer are brighter and warmer.  You can get so close that you become one with the fire and go up in smoke (not recommended in the Scout Handbook, BTW).  There are degrees of achieving this.  You are at whatever distance you are, neither there nor infinitely away.  
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> But you can never be the fire...ahh that makes for a better analogy :)
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> You miss my point, but you get it partially.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> If god is the fire, you can be close or far, but you will always be lit. And no matter how close you get you can never be the fire..?
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> No, the answer to that question is not in the manifesto.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> I need to reread it :p I'm really not with as much attention as I wish I was :p
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> Let me answer what I feel about this in as direct a way as I can.  I will peel down to bare bones cosmology here  and let you decide.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> The amount of matter/energy and the amount of spiritual energy in the universe has never changed.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> The physical universe condenses into a small space, then explodes, releasing the most basic of atomic particles which condense into particles and atoms and molecules.  Physical laws begin to form in the swirl of electromagnetic and physical pandemonium.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> okay....
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> This is the beating of the universe's heart.  It has probably happened uncounted times before, yielding physical reality after physical reality.  That is the nature of physical reality that it constantly changes and reforms like waves on a beach one after another.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> The nature of the metaphysical is that it endures between times.  The universal thought continues to diversify and grow.  It is massive, and it develops complexities like a melody which is orchestrated and arranged until it is mind-numbingly complex.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> We are a part of both processes.  The passing, ever renewing physical reality and the ever-enduring, ever growing metaphysical reality.  
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> The oneness I refer to is the fact that all metaphysical energy is both complex and part of one life continuum.  We are both members of our families and humans (in common)
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> We have degrees of similarity and differences.  We are all LITERALLY part of the circle of life, but not just a food chain or food web.  But literally manifestations of the universal spiritual force (usf).
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> The force of "love" is the organizing force that keeps the thought energy in the universe from deteriorating over time and experiencing entropy.  It is expressed through an emotion in us, but I believe it is more than (and perhaps not "mainly") an emotion in and of itself.  It's the spiritual glue that like a shepherd keeps the sheep from wandering off and getitng lost.  The sheep being the systems that make up the infinite metaphysical machinery of an infinite mind.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> No pun intended, but God must have one hell of an information storage and retrieval system.  ASnd you know what I say say about it, as with all information?  The most basic unit of God's thought, like all thought, is on/off, exists/nonexists, charged clockwise/counterclockwise.  God, like all information-storing creatures, is binary.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> Something greater than god?
<Chakal> This huge binary system is organized into larger units of information.  His mind is in fact (like ours) based on an operating system.  Not something written by a man or even written by God himself.  But something that in the rpesence of the MEDIUM and the FORCE somehow naturally exists.  
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> Now you're introducing a new concept..
<Chakal> No, not greater than God.  But the idea that God's properties of life and thought are somehow part of his physical/spiritual makeup as naturally as the freezing and boiling point of water are naturally due to its internal structure.  To be a living thing with no beginning and end, God must have somehow embodied the secret of some sort of binary principle where information accumulates.  Love is that "operating system" that accumulates, arranges, and incorporates.  In emotional creatures it is expressed through pleasure upon meeting acquaintences.  Also thorugh the tactile pleasure of closeness.  But its origins are in the natural principle of binary organization that keep God's infinite mind from corrupting and crashing.
<Chakal> 
<SimbaW> 
<Chakal> You know those dolls that have the weight in the bottom and no matter how many times you push or knock them over they right themselves?
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> What I am saying is that for a being to be KNOWING and FEELING and THINKING and SELF AWARE without having a programmer or designer means that somehow KNOWING, FEELING, THINKING and BEING SELF AWARE are somehow fundamentally TENDENCIES of whatever stuff God is made of so that you put enough together it will naturally LIVE!
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> The "Aufbau" principle--organization through building.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> Must go now.  HOpe I gave you something to think about.
<Chakal> 
<Chakal> ;-)
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