Since I don't care to just go on debating with those that know they know what is right for others, this is going to try and be a concluding two part post on the issue. I am happy to share and discuss all points, but when the discussion just gets to arguing without any interest in seeking truth with an open mind, it is not productive.
More and more sincere Christian theologian, scholars, historians and mainline congregations are finding that scriptures have been falsely translated or used to imply homosexuality is somehow a sin rather than the natural orientation it is. In the past many, including myself, just accepted the traditional teachings. But as more serious study of the original Greek/Hebrew and culture is done, it seems clear to many, that scripture says absolutely nothing about today's homosexual relationships.
My biggest issue is that a Christian, before declaring homosexuality a sin, needs to first examine the huge amount of scholarship of sincere Christians that clearly show its only the false traditional teachings that make homosexuality a sin, clearly not the word of God.
I can post lists and summaries of a sample of these studies.
For many the thought is just too repulsive to consider, so they will refuse to listen since they are too homophobic to learn the truth. I may have been guilty of this in the past, since I don't even like to hug a man much less.... Others have a more open mind and will explore the issue for themselves not just accepting the same traditional views that in the past supported slavery, illness as demon possession, and Galileo's almost demise for teaching the earth was round, since this was heresy as the scriptures clearly say the earth is flat and the center of the universe.
Also I suggest considering the living hell many sincere Christians experience just because God made them with a minority sexual orientation. Many wonderful, sincere Christian gays and lesbians find none of Christ's love in many Christian churches and flee, not knowing it the false teaching causing them to flee not the truth of God's love for them, as He created them.
Many have tried for decades to deny their natural sexuality and force themselves either into fake heterosexual relationships or celibacy (just as bad) thinking they have to please God.
Many finally get connected with other Church's where they learn God loves them just as He created them without having to change. That is, if they don't wind up committing suicide before they find the love of Christ rather than the judgement of Christians based on Levitical laws that we ignore in most other areas, or Paul's teachings which is about pederasty not homosexuality. It is interesting Jesus never said a word close to the subject and in fact Jesus shows special support for the love of the Centurion for his sick slave boy that appears to be a homosexual pederasty relationship.
Many so called change ministries have come and gone trying to make gays straight. Since you can't change nature these have been terrible failures. I can post many documented examples and studies of the total failure of change ministries.
Remember the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus changes all the "laws and the prophets" and replaces them with the only law of love.
For those not capable or willing to seriously study this issue, I suggest you cover your mouth when you speak. Just like with a cold or any disease, the sickness of false teaching is easily spread. In this case it is destroying many lives and causing many Christians to turn away from Christ to find God's real love.
I look forward to standing before God and being judged on my acceptance
of all His children regardless of race, sex, or sexual orientation,
will you be so comfortable? What if all the theologians exposing
the false teachings of it being a sin, are correct and you are
Sample Of Real Gays Feelings Posted On Prodigy
|Board:||MEDICAL SUPPORT BB|
|Subject:||GAY YOUTH SUPPORT|
|From:||AHXP28D ROB RYAN||Time:||11:28 PM|
I hate to bring this board down to earth or anything but I have a lot I wanted to share with you all, so that hopefully it might help someone from getting into the mess I let myself get into. Where to start....
Since about Christmas 93, my whole life has been about death, all I wanted to do is die, my ambition was to be in a fatal accident since I was unsuccessful (and afraid) of suicide. I constantly thought about it.. almost every day. When I found this board, I wrote some notes.. many 'coded' - by that I mean, not very straight forward, kind of in riddles. I didn't want to say that I was suicidal. I'd write here for a while, get nothing from it and feel resentful. I felt so trapped - thought I had no where to go. I tried to call some phone number that I got here and elsewhere but had some very bad experiences with them. In one night I called 3 so called support groups and ended up eating a pack of sleeping pills that night (over-the counter - no harm done, just a scare). About 2 months ago, I came out to a friend of mine from work - she was the first. None of my family live here and this friend and I have become very close and one night after long and hard thought I told her - she knew something was up because I would be depressed so often. Anyway, after that, I thought everything would be OK, I thought this would change my life - but it didn't.
After about six weeks I felt worse than ever and that's when the little sleeping pill incident took place. About six weeks later brings us up to yesterday. The last few days I had lost my appetite, just wanted to sleep all day and night etc, thought about killing myself constantly. Yesterday, I surfaced about 12:30 pm, drove down to the Laundromat to pick up my laundry and headed back home. I just wanted to end it, I couldn't get the steering wheel to veer into the lampposts. I was a wreck. I got home, got about 20 feet of cable from the closet and headed for the attic. I wanted to hang myself but there were no rafters there. I came into my bedroom and searched for pills but only had 3 tagamet and 2 or 3 sleeping pills. I thought about slashing my wrists, but could never bring myself to do that. My mind was exploding right inside my head, and I couldn't handle it. At that time, my friend (we'll call Joan) called me on the phone. She sensed something was wrong and I told her I needed help. Finally. She has been asking me to see a therapist or something for months, and I kept telling her there was nothing wrong, and I can handle anything myself - W R O N G ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Last night for the first time in my life, I spoke openly, face to face with two gay counsellors. It was very, very difficult at the start, but they made me feel very comfortable and at ease, and spent a lot of time with me. Today is a new day in the start of my new life, which I am going to dictate the pace. If I want to remain in the closet - that's my choice. If others don't accept me - that's their choice. There is no wrong way, or right way, or 'normal' way, or common way, or any other way of coming to terms with ones sexuality. It is so personal. And until the persons mind, can accept the simple fact that a small part of their life is 'different' from 'everyone' else, then they are not ready to go forward. I am now ready to move on, slowly. I'm going to take my time, do it as I want to.
Just thought I'd share that with you.
Love & Peace.... Rob.
Questions for Heterosexuals
When did you decide to become heterosexual ? Might your heterosexuality just be a phase you will grow out of ?
Is it possible you just have an neurotic fear of people of your same sex? Isn't it possible that all you need is a good same sex lover?
Your heterosexuality doesn't offend gays as long as you don't try and force it on them. Why do you feel compelled to seduce others into your heterosexual orientation?
Why do you insist on holding hands and being obvious making a public spectacle of your heterosexuality? Can't you just be what you are and keep it quiet?
How can you fully satisfy and understand your partner of the opposite sex when there are so many obvious physical, biological and temperamental differences between you that are so vast? How can a man understand what pleases a women sexually and vice-versa?
With all the societal support for marriage, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?
How could the human race and all of nature survive if everyone were heterosexual like you, considering the menace of overpopulation to humanity and the environment?
Note: This is a public letter to Pat Robertson from OzActivist@aol.com,
reposted on Prodigy by Bill Ply. It shows how dangerous Pat Robertson
is in that so many of his "fans" actually believe his
lies and false teachings concerning homosexuality. Pat is an
abomination that needs to be exposed as such. He is a disgrace
to Christians who seek scriptural truth not the perverted traditional
views that have changed the original texts for an agenda based
on repression and control.
Re-posted by Davephx@primenet.com a biblical Christian who happened
to have been born very heterosexual. I didn't choose my heterosexual
orientation, it was simply how I was born. The same is true for
those born homosexual or bisexual. Their only "sin"
is being just as God created them. The "sin" is in
the false teachings and twisting by the likes of Pat Robertson.
Re-posted by Davephx@primenet.com a biblical Christian who happened to have been born very heterosexual. I didn't choose my heterosexual orientation, it was simply how I was born. The same is true for those born homosexual or bisexual. Their only "sin" is being just as God created them. The "sin" is in the false teachings and twisting by the likes of Pat Robertson.
|From:||BILL PY (NPYR87B)|
FEEDBACK: From OzActivist@AOL.COM: [A letter to Pat Robertson, whose 700 Club is presenting a 3-part 3-day series on homosexuality March 26-28,1996]
Dear Dr. Robertson,
Hope all is well with you. I am writing you concerning the first of your "three part series on homosexuality: dispelling the myths". I am glad you at least put on a sugar coated patina of "loving concern" this time around and dropped the "homosexuals are Nazis and Satanists" sound bite, but your broadcast still very much angered me. You did not dispel a single myth, you spread them nationwide tonight like so much fertilizer. And you are doing two more just like this tomorrow and Thursday.
My father has always loved, supported and accepted me, Pat, except for my sexual orientation. According to your obsolete notions, then, I ought to be heterosexual. Well, I'm not. The only way he could have been more accepting would be to drop his religion-based homophobia, and yet this is exactly what you do not want him to do.
You claim that "most" lesbians are lesbian because of sexual abuse by males. You threw out a figure like "29%" which is certainly not "most" by any standard. Does it ever occur to you, Pat, that one reason many lesbians are raped or abused by predatory men is that the man finds out the woman's sexual orientation and then threatens to tell everyone unless she goes along with his wishes? Others have raped lesbians claiming that they have a Godgiven imperative to "teach them how to be a woman". I had such a friend in Santa Barbara who was raped by an HIV positive straight man and died of AIDS in 1994. She is dead in part because of the myths spread by people like you.
Such antigay figures as Dr. Socarides and Phyllis Schlafly have gay children. How do you explain that? Were they bad parents? Then what business do they have telling other parents how to raise their children???? You insist that most homosexuals are unhappy because all the ones that called your counsellors said so. Does it occur to you that the ones who are well adjusted and accept themselves would not be calling your counselling lines in the first place? Hello???
Furthermore, does it ever occur to you that any homosexuals who are unhappy are that way not because it is pathological but because of the level of antigay persecution and sometimes the difficulty in meeting the "right person" from a small portion of the population than heterosexuals can choose from? Have you ever read studies that show that gays are happier in liberal big cities than in intolerant rural and small town places?
Your show's "refutations" of the gene studies were very weak. You commented on the fact that not all identical twins had the same sexual orientation as "proof" that it cannot be genetic. First of all, there is no way to prove some of the twins were not lying about their sexual orientation, and second, sexual orientation may also be influenced by in utero levels of hormone exposure. It's been found that human twins often receive disparate hormone exposure even if they are gestated at the same time. Experiments with lab mammals have found these exposures can permanently determine the animal's sexual orientation, and there may be some parallels to human development. It ain't just the genes, pal.
For someone so obsessed with other women's pregnancies and their right to decide on whether to terminate them, Pat, you certainly are ignorant about reproduction.
You also cited the fact that one study's author was gay, and that therefore the study had to be rejected as biased. Then you had Robert Knight of Family Research Council, an antigay group, comment. Why are "biased" sources discounted when they disagree with you and counted when they agree with you? You mentioned that the Hamer study was being investigated for fraud, but so is antigay researcher Paul Cameron, who was expelled for distorting the findings of other researchers and expelled by the APA in 1984. And what did you do, Pat? You had Mr. Cameron appear on the 700 Club as a "scientific expert on homosexuality". HA!
Your guest, Mr Davies of Exodus, claims he is proof that homosexuality is not permanent because he was attracted to men for a while and never acted on it. That is not coming out of homosexuality, Pat, that is called bisexuality. Look it up in the dictionary. The fact that not all people are gay or straight does not mean it is not hereditary, only that it may be a mix, much as hair color has a broad spectrum that is determined by genes.
I certainly felt bad for the woman featured tonight who said she grew up teased for her appearance and was never accepted. My arm was broken in seventh grade gym because a ninth grader had decided I was a "Faggot". I can only shudder to think what would have happened if he had actually known that for a fact. I also shudder to think what would have happened if I had succeeded in a 1984 suicide attempt that resulted in a two week hospital stay and extensive counselling, as a result of which I am now mentally healthy and productive. But, I still have scars on my left hand to remind me that this happens to lots of kids.
This is the kind of event that some schools are trying to stop by teaching students it is wrong to be hateful toward gay young people, and your followers, Pat, are the ones resisting that every step of the way.
Your story on this woman implied that she became a lesbian because of her loneliness and someone who "recruited" her by showing love and acceptance. Then, you talk about this fundamentalist woman who did the same thing, and cite this as "proof" that people can "come out of homosexuality". Pat, the two situations are the same thing. She was looking for love and she probably is still attracted to women. Her sexual orientation has nothing to do with her being celibate.
As documented by the APA, Exodus is a fraud that has left thousands of gay and lesbian people with huge bills and crushed psyches. Its male cofounders founders didn't even stay straight, they fell in love with each other and denounced the group. What a farce!
A Tennessee woman in your audience asked what her church should do about a gay man who had a sex change to female. She seemed very sincerely concerned. You visibly snickered. Gender reassignment surgery costs up to $30,000 dollars, Pat, and it is only allowed if the patient has extensive counselling first to make sure this drastic change is the right idea. This person was in a lot of pain if he went through all that to become a she, and what was your Christian response to that? You snickered and then said "I think this is such a small group of people that it doesn't really matter".
Well. I thought you believed "A person is a person is a person"? Gays and lesbians, according to you, are a small group of people, and yet you spend almost all your time obsessed with making their lives difficult. A lot of transgendered people are not gay to begin with. Please read some materials on this phenomenon. A Tennessee man in the audience then asked whether gays were really 10% of the population, and you claimed this was only found by fraudulent studies done by Kinsey. You said that "every study I've seen has shown that 2% of men and 1% of women are lesbians and that's it!" Pat, with people like you around encouraging hostility to gays and lesbians, did it occur to you that a lot of people surveyed probably lied that they were straight or refused to participate? Hello??
Even your "scientific" friend Dr Paul Cameron, who hates gays so much he has called for their extermination (see Koop's autobiography), puts the figure at 3% (TIME, Nov 15 1992). Your cohost, Terry Meeuwwsen, claimed PFLAG stood for "Parents Friends and *Lovers* of Gays". The LAG actually stands for Lesbians and Gays. You are that ignorant about a group that you are suing to stop ads that accurately patote your own hateful words?
Finally, you explicitly said that "sexual orientation" does not keep anyone from going to heaven, and that only if homosexuals are "in the promiscuous lifestyle" will they go to hell. The assumption here seems to be that homosexuals are either celibate or promiscuous, never monogamous. Have you ever read the Ninth Commandment that you keep trying to force public schools to display? Your confusion of the Koine Greek word for temple prostitute in Revelations with "homosexual" was a particularly poor bit of Biblical exgesis, but I digress.
Directly following your 9 pm broadcast, your Family Channel featured a "Three Stooges" short in which the Stooges dressed up as women. Now why, Pat, do you take the "abomination" thing about homosexuals so seriously and then feature crossdressing on your network, when Leviticus mention *both* as abominations?
It appears, Pat, that you really take your show, and the pain of people like the transgendered woman your audience mentioned, about as seriously as you take the Stooges. Shame on you. You are causing real pain and violence, Pat, and you need to STOP IT. NOW.
Pat Robertson concluded his three-part series tonight on the Family Channel about the "Myth" of homosexuality by declaring that, "The nightmare of AIDS is a consequence of a person's behavior." Once again, Pat hit hard on the theme that for one man to lie down with another is an abomination. He also made repeated reference to a transformation which he and his co-hosts described as "Coming out of homosexuality."
Videotaped footage of a gay man was shown. In the interview, the man stated, "I struggled with homosexuality for over ten years."
Pat said that "Prayer helped him overcome his attraction to men," but it was too late: "He died as a result of his homosexual behavior."
In-studio guest, Anita Worthen was brought out to give her testimony as to what it is like to be a Christian mother of a gay man. Her son, 31, has full-blown AIDS and according to her, "was led into the homosexual lifestyle by a guidance counselor. He was seduced and trapped by him. Not having a father figure around causes homosexuality," in her opinion. Her son had a lover of 10 years who died of AIDS. She said you can still show love to your children without showing them approval." [Love without affirmation? I don't think so.] "Homosexuality causes parents to go through shame...guilt..."
Later, Anita married one of the founders of Exodus (a "de-gaying support group" which uses fear and coercion to brainwash homosexuals into a twisted brand of Christianity). Her own husband was homosexual until he was forty-something. They married when he was 55. Pat asked her what was going through her mind when she married him, "knowing he had been a homosexual," and she responded, "Sex isn't a big thing for women." She said they just cuddle.
Pat actually said that sexual preference is going to go away with age. "Then, what happens with your spirit?" he asked, rhetorically.
Pat said hundreds of people have been calling in to the 700 Club the past couple of days who want out of homosexuality. "Many of them are depressed and suicidal because of it." He urged viewers in this situation to call his ministry by saying, "If you want to be free, I want you to call, right now."
A person wrote in a question to Pat Robertson that was read on the air to ask if they should attend their brother's gay wedding. Pat answered, "I don't think so. I think showing up to that wedding would be putting your stamp of approval on it. Tell your brother, 'I think it's wrong and I just can't go along with this stuff.'"
Dr. Robertson also explained that the concept that God is a God of Love is misunderstood. "He's also a God of Wrath. Read Deuteronomy. When Moses is speaking... 'You shall love the Lord your God and fear the Lord your God. God is a consuming fire.' He sets standards for human beings." Pat used adultery as an example.
Also in Pat Robertson's own words: "Homosexuality is not loving, it's lust. And whether or not YOU think it's love is tough luck."
"I think we are destroyed when we have this Council of Rabbis and Churches, which says that we have to acknowledge this so-called loving relationship. God says, 'I don't recognize it.'" Pat rationalized his tone by declaring, "This isn't harsh, we LOVE people."
"Homosexuality is bringing terrible disease to the world, not just AIDS - Intestinal disease, and various other types of so-called STDs, we have an epidemic of STDs," Pat also said.
In response to another alleged viewer question, Pat said that effeminate mannerisms will go away if a person comes out of homosexuality. "Effeminate mannerisms are learned." Co-host, Terry Meeuwwsen also observed, "a man carries himself a certain way."
Perhaps the only humor in the program came when Pat referred to a previous segment in the series that highlighted a transsexual. "[She] was gorgeous, with the makeup and everything. Still a good-looking man, even though he was now a woman. He drew my attention." Pat seemed disoriented and slightly confused as he squirmed in his seat.
Pat and his co-hosts compared homosexuality to alcoholism and drug addiction.
He also complained that P-FLAG was accusing him of causing teen depression and suicides. He lamented, "I'm just trying to tell the loving truth of the Gospel. If people feel guilty, it's because they feel that way for not following the laws of God. They hate what they're doing and not sure how they can get out of it."
Pat said, "That's no reason to go to the Gay Parade in San Francisco and blaze out."
Bill Py, Special Contributor, G/L/B/T BB
Note: Pat Robertson's e-mail address is: email@example.com Replies of interest:
From: RON SEELEY (HYUT32A)
Replying to another comment of JG:
<My personal opinion is that homosexuality is not really that
much of an issue to Pat himself, but a lucrative money-maker for
his organization. He knows what buttons to push.>
JG, my sentiment exactly. I enjoyed reading Bill's message to
Robertson and appreciate the time he spent researching and composing
it. I specially liked his documentation of the lies and distortion
of simple everyday fact. But people like Robertson get similar
messages like this all the time. It's just part of the cost of
doing business - you win some you loose some. Sometimes I try
to put myself in Robertson's position with all that dough rolling
in and, although I see myself as a fairly nice guy, it sure would
be a temptation to keep the ball rolling onto bigger and better
things. As you say, he knows what buttons to push. It seems that's
about all he does know. It's a simple trick, but the dollars just
keep on coming. Now, why can't I find a job like that?
The sad thing though is that Robertson is the antithesis of the
one that he purports to emulate. Instead of Christ I fear we have
a Judas in our midst. As the story goes, in the beginning Judas
truly loved Christ. The problem was that Christ never grew into
the person Judas wanted him to be. The truth is that when you
look deeply into the heart of everyman you will find a Judas.
It's just that most do not allow themselves to become a prostitute
for that baseness. But then again - some do.
Hope this helps. Ron
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Replying to another comment of JG:
<My personal opinion is that homosexuality is not really that much of an issue to Pat himself, but a lucrative money-maker for his organization. He knows what buttons to push.>
JG, my sentiment exactly. I enjoyed reading Bill's message to Robertson and appreciate the time he spent researching and composing it. I specially liked his documentation of the lies and distortion of simple everyday fact. But people like Robertson get similar messages like this all the time. It's just part of the cost of doing business - you win some you loose some. Sometimes I try to put myself in Robertson's position with all that dough rolling in and, although I see myself as a fairly nice guy, it sure would be a temptation to keep the ball rolling onto bigger and better things. As you say, he knows what buttons to push. It seems that's about all he does know. It's a simple trick, but the dollars just keep on coming. Now, why can't I find a job like that?
The sad thing though is that Robertson is the antithesis of the one that he purports to emulate. Instead of Christ I fear we have a Judas in our midst. As the story goes, in the beginning Judas truly loved Christ. The problem was that Christ never grew into the person Judas wanted him to be. The truth is that when you look deeply into the heart of everyman you will find a Judas. It's just that most do not allow themselves to become a prostitute for that baseness. But then again - some do.
Hope this helps. Ron